Usually, getting paid more at work is a good thing. But for some people on government assistance, increasing the amount of income they earn can actually make them worse off. On this episode, we talk with someone who has experienced the safety-net benefits cliff to understand how it can affect decisions about work and economic opportunities.

Nic Dunn sits down with Marcella Patiño and Josh Nelson of Circles Salt Lake. Marcella is a Circle Leader who has faced benefits cliffs that discouraged her from pursuing work opportunities. Josh is an Ally who volunteers to help participants navigate poverty to achieve self-sufficiency through sustained work.

Show notes:

• A firsthand account of overcoming ‘benefits cliffs’ to escape poverty – Sutherland Institute
• How programs to help the poor can harm upward mobility – Sutherland Institute
• Why America needs a new welfare reform movement – Sutherland Institute
• Removing work disincentives in the social safety net will strengthen upward mobility and the economy – Sutherland Institute

Defending Ideas is a weekly podcast produced by Sutherland Institute. On this show we are committed to renewing the principles of common sense conservatism, equipping listeners to become more effective champions of sound principle and good policy. Visit defendingideas.org.