<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Confused Mormons whine about ‘Zion curtain’</title>
	<atom:link href="http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/</link>
	<description>News and views on Utah public policy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 22:18:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Griffin Kearns</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1248</link>
		<dc:creator>Griffin Kearns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1248</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to have one fewer drink is an abuse of government power. &quot;

Let&#039;s apply this statement to various other laws to see if it makes sense.

Traffic: &quot;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to [drive slower] is an abuse of government power.&quot; 

Narcotics: &quot;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to [not smoke crack] is an abuse of government power. &quot;

&quot;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to [not physically or sexually assault another human being] is an abuse of government power. &quot;

Nope. It&#039;s a stupid statement any way you slice it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to have one fewer drink is an abuse of government power. &#8221;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s apply this statement to various other laws to see if it makes sense.</p>
<p>Traffic: &#8220;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to [drive slower] is an abuse of government power.&#8221; </p>
<p>Narcotics: &#8220;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to [not smoke crack] is an abuse of government power. &#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;To pass rules that might cause one person somewhere to [not physically or sexually assault another human being] is an abuse of government power. &#8221;</p>
<p>Nope. It&#8217;s a stupid statement any way you slice it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Research backs up Utah’s alcohol laws &#124; Sutherland Daily</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1247</link>
		<dc:creator>Research backs up Utah’s alcohol laws &#124; Sutherland Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1247</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a colleague of mine wrote a blog post about the flaws in the thinking of a group that opposes one of Utah’s alcohol laws. That blog [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a colleague of mine wrote a blog post about the flaws in the thinking of a group that opposes one of Utah’s alcohol laws. That blog [...] </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matthew Piccolo</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1246</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Piccolo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 16:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1246</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that having the facts can empower good decision-making, but sex education just isn&#039;t a good example, at least not sex education in public schools.  Do you mean there&#039;s a strong correlation between abstinence education or &quot;comprehensive&quot; or something else?  In my review of the research, you can find studies that support either side, but, overall, the research suggests that sex education (both abstinence and comprehensive, or a combination of the two) in public schools has only a minor effect on adolescent behavior, if any at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that having the facts can empower good decision-making, but sex education just isn&#8217;t a good example, at least not sex education in public schools.  Do you mean there&#8217;s a strong correlation between abstinence education or &#8220;comprehensive&#8221; or something else?  In my review of the research, you can find studies that support either side, but, overall, the research suggests that sex education (both abstinence and comprehensive, or a combination of the two) in public schools has only a minor effect on adolescent behavior, if any at all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jesse Harris</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1245</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think the parallel quite matches up. A picture is designed to be visual stimuli, alcohol is not. I have a hard time buying the argument that putting it &quot;out of sight&quot; affects consumption when the product is still available. I think it would be much more effective to place the effort into showing the negative consequences of alcohol consumption and dispelling the myths about positive effects. Creating an air of mystique about it by hiding it only piques curiosity. A good example is sex education. There is a strong correlation between more in-depth sex education and increased rates of abstinence. Having a command of the facts empowers good decision-making, and public policy should embrace this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the parallel quite matches up. A picture is designed to be visual stimuli, alcohol is not. I have a hard time buying the argument that putting it &#8220;out of sight&#8221; affects consumption when the product is still available. I think it would be much more effective to place the effort into showing the negative consequences of alcohol consumption and dispelling the myths about positive effects. Creating an air of mystique about it by hiding it only piques curiosity. A good example is sex education. There is a strong correlation between more in-depth sex education and increased rates of abstinence. Having a command of the facts empowers good decision-making, and public policy should embrace this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Mero</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1244</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Mero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 06:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Jesse.  I have said that measuring a component of liquor regulation designed to affect future behavior (that can only be measured through longitudinal analyses...if such research were begun right now), such as the &quot;Zion curtain,&quot; is impossible to quantify in the short-term given its intention, its policy reasoning...like not posting a picture of a naked, sexy woman in your son&#039;s room as he grows to puberty -- chances are, in the course of you trying to guide his perceptions of women, you can&#039;t measure the effect of keeping such visions from him but you&#039;re reasonably sure that what you did for him early on helped mitigate his future negative perceptions of women.

There&#039;s plenty of data to suggest consumption of liquor has deep social and criminal consequences.  Do I really have to post tons of links right here for you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jesse.  I have said that measuring a component of liquor regulation designed to affect future behavior (that can only be measured through longitudinal analyses&#8230;if such research were begun right now), such as the &#8220;Zion curtain,&#8221; is impossible to quantify in the short-term given its intention, its policy reasoning&#8230;like not posting a picture of a naked, sexy woman in your son&#8217;s room as he grows to puberty &#8212; chances are, in the course of you trying to guide his perceptions of women, you can&#8217;t measure the effect of keeping such visions from him but you&#8217;re reasonably sure that what you did for him early on helped mitigate his future negative perceptions of women.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s plenty of data to suggest consumption of liquor has deep social and criminal consequences.  Do I really have to post tons of links right here for you?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Mero</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1243</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Mero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1243</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your rights as a &quot;minority&quot; are not infringed because of liquor regulations...unless your minority status is based on the behavior of liquor drinking.  If that&#039;s the case, everyone is a minority based on some personal behavior that we do but others don&#039;t and where a law applies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your rights as a &#8220;minority&#8221; are not infringed because of liquor regulations&#8230;unless your minority status is based on the behavior of liquor drinking.  If that&#8217;s the case, everyone is a minority based on some personal behavior that we do but others don&#8217;t and where a law applies.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shaunty Linton</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1242</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaunty Linton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 05:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I disagree largely with one point, it should not be expected that the presence of LDS constituents should result in tighter liquor laws. As a minority the law is supposed to protect me and allow me the pursuit of happiness so long as I don&#039;t hurt someone else in doing so.  Laws like this restrict the freedom of the minorities with little, if any, real benefit to the majority. Laws(in America, at least) are not supposed to be based purely on what some people think is right or wrong, particularly if those beliefs are based in religious morals. Our country was founded on the concept of religious freedom. The instant you have any law based on the religious beliefs of any one sect you are infringing on the rights of any others that disagree. 

For instance, let&#039;s say we had chosen to legislate Buddhism instead of the Book of Mormon. Did you kill the spider that was &quot;threatening&quot; your wife last night? What about those weeds in your garden? Looks like jail time for you, because we believe that all life is equally sacred, so you might as well have murdered those thirty three plants...too bad it was so many, looks like you&#039;re never coming out! 

Back to Utahs situation, should I now be able to fined for wearing a top that shows the teensiest bit of cleavage? How about swearing? A lot of mormons feel so strongly about that. Oh, and while we&#039;re at telling everyone else what they can drink, Starbucks needs to start pouring their drinks out of sight. It&#039;s been shown that caffeine is terrible for young children, and it falls under hot drink in the word of wisdom! Can&#039;t have them tempting our youngins! 

I could go on, but I think I&#039;ve made the point that laws based just on religion result in silly, unreasonable things. If you are going to restrict the freedoms of others in America you need a better reason than &quot;Well, my god says...&quot;

Sorry, but to have my freedoms restricted with that as the justification has been really rubbing me the wrong way, so thanks for bearing my rant. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree largely with one point, it should not be expected that the presence of LDS constituents should result in tighter liquor laws. As a minority the law is supposed to protect me and allow me the pursuit of happiness so long as I don&#8217;t hurt someone else in doing so.  Laws like this restrict the freedom of the minorities with little, if any, real benefit to the majority. Laws(in America, at least) are not supposed to be based purely on what some people think is right or wrong, particularly if those beliefs are based in religious morals. Our country was founded on the concept of religious freedom. The instant you have any law based on the religious beliefs of any one sect you are infringing on the rights of any others that disagree. </p>
<p>For instance, let&#8217;s say we had chosen to legislate Buddhism instead of the Book of Mormon. Did you kill the spider that was &#8220;threatening&#8221; your wife last night? What about those weeds in your garden? Looks like jail time for you, because we believe that all life is equally sacred, so you might as well have murdered those thirty three plants&#8230;too bad it was so many, looks like you&#8217;re never coming out! </p>
<p>Back to Utahs situation, should I now be able to fined for wearing a top that shows the teensiest bit of cleavage? How about swearing? A lot of mormons feel so strongly about that. Oh, and while we&#8217;re at telling everyone else what they can drink, Starbucks needs to start pouring their drinks out of sight. It&#8217;s been shown that caffeine is terrible for young children, and it falls under hot drink in the word of wisdom! Can&#8217;t have them tempting our youngins! </p>
<p>I could go on, but I think I&#8217;ve made the point that laws based just on religion result in silly, unreasonable things. If you are going to restrict the freedoms of others in America you need a better reason than &#8220;Well, my god says&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry, but to have my freedoms restricted with that as the justification has been really rubbing me the wrong way, so thanks for bearing my rant. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shaunty Linton</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1241</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaunty Linton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 05:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why is it that parents now feel that they should never have to undergo the experience of telling their child no any more? I&#039;m sorry, but on a daily basis a child sees and wants things that aren&#039;t good for them. They hear words that are inappropriate for a child to repeat, candy they shouldn&#039;t eat, people driving cars that they can&#039;t etc. But it is the job of the PARENT to educate and guide the childs development. It is for the parent to teach the child that while other people may think something is ok it is not right for them. This applies to everything from alcohol to modest dress to eating snacks too close to dinner. 

Children see others doing things they are too young to do all the time as well, and the parent must teach the child to deal with that disappointment. &quot;No Suzy, you can&#039;t open that present, it&#039;s not your birthday&quot;...&quot;Sorry Jon, but you&#039;re to short to go on this ride, you could get hurt.&quot;...&quot;I&#039;m sorry Dave, but that drink is for adults. Let&#039;s get you a fancy drink that&#039;s all for you!&quot;

In fact, taking this away is taking a learning opportunity away from child and parent. It is vital in the raising of a child that a parent establish rules and boundaries that the child must follow even if they seem arbitrary. Otherwise, how will the child deal with it when similar rules and standards are enacted in the work place? Not only is it important to their future, but, as any episode of SuperNanny will tell you, children crave these boundaries, they help them understand the world, and many behavorial problems are due to the parents not expressing clear expectations. Children want this guidance from the PARENT not the STATE. 

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is it that parents now feel that they should never have to undergo the experience of telling their child no any more? I&#8217;m sorry, but on a daily basis a child sees and wants things that aren&#8217;t good for them. They hear words that are inappropriate for a child to repeat, candy they shouldn&#8217;t eat, people driving cars that they can&#8217;t etc. But it is the job of the PARENT to educate and guide the childs development. It is for the parent to teach the child that while other people may think something is ok it is not right for them. This applies to everything from alcohol to modest dress to eating snacks too close to dinner. </p>
<p>Children see others doing things they are too young to do all the time as well, and the parent must teach the child to deal with that disappointment. &#8220;No Suzy, you can&#8217;t open that present, it&#8217;s not your birthday&#8221;&#8230;&#8221;Sorry Jon, but you&#8217;re to short to go on this ride, you could get hurt.&#8221;&#8230;&#8221;I&#8217;m sorry Dave, but that drink is for adults. Let&#8217;s get you a fancy drink that&#8217;s all for you!&#8221;</p>
<p>In fact, taking this away is taking a learning opportunity away from child and parent. It is vital in the raising of a child that a parent establish rules and boundaries that the child must follow even if they seem arbitrary. Otherwise, how will the child deal with it when similar rules and standards are enacted in the work place? Not only is it important to their future, but, as any episode of SuperNanny will tell you, children crave these boundaries, they help them understand the world, and many behavorial problems are due to the parents not expressing clear expectations. Children want this guidance from the PARENT not the STATE. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jesse Dominic Harris</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1240</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Dominic Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 20:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1240</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, I understand your argument to be that a removal of various legal restrictions on distribution and access to alcohol results in increased consumption and that the converse, maintaining or extending said restrictions, leads to decreased consumption. Given the wide variety of legal frameworks governing both the sale and consumption of alcohol, shouldn&#039;t it be easy to try and measure the effects of such laws? And yet, most of your argument is entirely based on a fuzzy &quot;it feels right&quot; kind of argument with no hard data. If the goal is to reduce consumption (which I don&#039;t think is a bad goal), you need to find data to back up your proposals to do so, both to achieve your goal and sell your solution.

It&#039;s too convenient to say that establishing correlation and/or causation can&#039;t be done, and then do whatever &quot;feels right&quot; without regard to consequences. (And yes, it cuts both ways.) There are numerous other states where liquor regulations have changed decades ago and the effects can be measured. Not doing so because it is difficult is to eschew good data-driven public policy. You should (and can) be better than that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, I understand your argument to be that a removal of various legal restrictions on distribution and access to alcohol results in increased consumption and that the converse, maintaining or extending said restrictions, leads to decreased consumption. Given the wide variety of legal frameworks governing both the sale and consumption of alcohol, shouldn&#8217;t it be easy to try and measure the effects of such laws? And yet, most of your argument is entirely based on a fuzzy &#8220;it feels right&#8221; kind of argument with no hard data. If the goal is to reduce consumption (which I don&#8217;t think is a bad goal), you need to find data to back up your proposals to do so, both to achieve your goal and sell your solution.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s too convenient to say that establishing correlation and/or causation can&#8217;t be done, and then do whatever &#8220;feels right&#8221; without regard to consequences. (And yes, it cuts both ways.) There are numerous other states where liquor regulations have changed decades ago and the effects can be measured. Not doing so because it is difficult is to eschew good data-driven public policy. You should (and can) be better than that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2011/09/02/confused-mormons-whine-about-zion-curtain/#comment-1239</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 03:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sutherlandinstitute.org/news/?p=1249#comment-1239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Although this really has nothing to do with Mr. Mero&#039;s points, it&#039;s interesting to do a little more research on this point.  You find articles like this from the American Heart Association that have more to say than just that wine is good for your heart
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/103/3/472.full
It raises a lot of questions about the reliability of the studies done and also notes that simple grape juice can offer the same health benefits as wine.
Other examples include articles from CNN
http://articles.cnn.com/2000-03-31/health/wine.heart.wmd_1_grape-juice-nonalcoholic-wine-john-folts?_s=PM:HEALTH
and from the Mayo clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00576


The studies referred to in Korry&#039;s post also don&#039;t address the negative effects alcohol may have on other areas of a person&#039;s health, even while possibly providing positive effects on the cardiovascular health.  For instance, liver damage or a person&#039;s genetic disposition to become addicted which can&#039;t be known before trying alcohol.  Do the negatives outweight the positives?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although this really has nothing to do with Mr. Mero&#8217;s points, it&#8217;s interesting to do a little more research on this point.  You find articles like this from the American Heart Association that have more to say than just that wine is good for your heart<br />
<a href="http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/103/3/472.full" rel="nofollow">http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/103/3/472.full</a><br />
It raises a lot of questions about the reliability of the studies done and also notes that simple grape juice can offer the same health benefits as wine.<br />
Other examples include articles from CNN<br />
<a href="http://articles.cnn.com/2000-03-31/health/wine.heart.wmd_1_grape-juice-nonalcoholic-wine-john-folts?_s=PM:HEALTH" rel="nofollow">http://articles.cnn.com/2000-03-31/health/wine.heart.wmd_1_grape-juice-nonalcoholic-wine-john-folts?_s=PM:HEALTH</a><br />
and from the Mayo clinic<br />
<a href="http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00576" rel="nofollow">http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00576</a></p>
<p>The studies referred to in Korry&#8217;s post also don&#8217;t address the negative effects alcohol may have on other areas of a person&#8217;s health, even while possibly providing positive effects on the cardiovascular health.  For instance, liver damage or a person&#8217;s genetic disposition to become addicted which can&#8217;t be known before trying alcohol.  Do the negatives outweight the positives?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
